Monday 22 December 2014

Response to Can we be Rational about Seaworld?

Can we be rational about Seaworld

I have responded to this article, but just incase this comment doesn't pass the moderation process, here it is.

There is a lot of scientific and factual evidence out there, here are some of them for you too
Blackfish replies to Seaworld's interpretation of Blackfish and the links proving what is true and where Seaworld lied are all in here

1. swimming 100 miles per day - Ken Balcomb has studied the SR's for 37 years and documented them swimming 75 miles per day average. HERE  I think the point that is trying to be made is whether the orcas across the globe are hunting, playing or just socializing, they are constantly in motion even when sleeping. As you can see from video evidence, Seaworld orcas are not. Using the West Nile Virus which has killed Seaworld orcas, no recorded cases in the wild as it is carried by mosquito, had they not been logging at the surface, they wouldn't have been bitten. Seaworld often say they are sleeping but as you should know cetacean brains are designed so they can shut off half at a time to constantly be in motion even when sleeping.
Video evidence of Seaworld orcas inactivity





2. Dorsal fin collapse is easily explained by both Naomi Rose and Todd Robeck Seaworld vet in the recent debate. Do take note though that Todd Robeck admits that the Seaworld website is misleading by using just the data from  Dr Ingrid Visser and both agree that dorsal fin collapse in the wild is only 1%.  His is however incorrect that the dorsal fin is made of cartilage it is actually made of collagen.   This seems to be the best source for the information as it does show both scientific and Seaworld's opinion in this matter.


In response to this statement ''so SeaWorld has been called out for misrepresenting that figure. The point is that collapsed dorsal fins do occur in the wild ''.
The point actually is that Seaworld deliberately manipulated the information and has misled people with it, hence the protest from Dr Visser and their own vet admitted that. 

3. Longevity -
Firstly was there a need for the scientist turned activist comment. Naomi Rose still received her phD in the social dynamics of killer whales.
She oversees HSI campaigns to protect wild and captive marine mammals and is a member of the International Whaling Commissions Scientific Committee.
She has published popular and scientific articles and lectures at several universities.
She participates in task forces and workshops at International, National and State Level.
She received her PhD on the social dynamics of killer whales in 1992 from the University of California in Santa Cruz.
So whether you think she is an activist or not is irrelevant to your 'unbiased' blog. You say you too have a PhD so does that become non existent because you write a pro cap blog?

As for the longevity claims there are actually research papers out there proving that captive orcas DO NOT live as long as their wild counterparts.
SeaWorld's explanation of longevity comparisons between wild and captive populations states: "The issue of killer whale lifespan is one that is often misconstrued and overly simplified. The simple truth is that no one knows." But then they go on to say that they do know: "The data we do have show that killer whales at SeaWorld are living as long as their counterparts in the wild. "

But how long do they live in natural habitats?

This paper isn't as old as the one you claimed to find, this is 2005 and reveals      
46 years for Northern Resident females from 1973 to 1996 and 30 years from 1996 to 2004;
50 years for Southern and Northern Resident combined females from 1973 to 1987;
39 years for Southern Alaska Resident females from 1984 to 2001;
31 years for Northern Resident males from 1973 to 1996 and 19 years from 1996 to 2004;
29 years for Southern and Northern Resident combined males from 1973 to 1987; and 31 years for Southern Alaska Resident males from 1984 to 2001. (The complete breakdown is in Table 14 on page 55.)

The 2005 Olesiuk et al paper is the best summary of orca lifespans to date with hard data. One important caveat however, is that those data are from a population that was quite likely significantly culled by random shootings prior to the start of the field studies. The estimates in Olesiuk et al are based on observations beginning in 1973, and mortalities from shootings may have been high for decades prior to that date, which could have significantly biased the lifespan estimates downward, because the killed animals would have added to the ranks of older age classes during the study if they had not been killed.

This 2012 paper   describes something briefly discussed in the 2005 paper: female reproductive senescense, or menopause. A striking similarity between humans and orcas comes clear in the female post-reproductive lifespans.

Orcas and humans (and pilot whales) are the only mammals known to science (so far) to exhibit menopause. For both humans and orcas, females are reproductive for about 25 years until around 40 years of age, but often live 3 or 4 decades after their last offspring is born. In natural orca communities where mating is governed by cultural traditions (along with diet, language, etc.), the first calf is born when the mother is about 14-15 years old. Most human females are capable of having their first baby at about that age. At SeaWorld, females are often bred much earlier, at 6 or 7 years old, indicating either artificial inducement by hormonal supplements, or the absence of cultural restraints, or both.

We don't have definite birth years for the older orca females, but several have been post-reproductive since the photo-ID studies began in 1973, and are still alive, indicating they are at least around 75 now, and some are older. That is roughly equivalent to human life spans. 
Male maturation rates are also very similar for humans and orcas, beginning in early to mid-teens with full maturity in late teens. This indicates that full male lifespans in undisturbed populations may also be similar.  Olesiuk, et al., p. 33:

So those studied in 2012 are known to be at least 75 years old. Oh, but hey, at least no one is anthropomorphizing here, there is no need to compare them to human baseball players as the scientific evidence speaks for itself.

When Seaworld have 75 year old orcas in their tanks then they can claim they live as long as their wild counterparts.

4. Attacks and deaths = there are 4 deaths by captive orcas not 3 - Keltie Byrne, Daniel Dukes, Alex Martinez and Dawn Brancheau, many near death and many many incidents. If you think that is a good rate over 50 years, then compare that to the wild population where there have been 5 incidents and no deaths, 2 involving orcas tipping an iceflow no contact with humans made, 1 where they sank a boat tipping 6 people into the water, no human contact made, 1 where a boy swimming with seals was bumped on the shoulder as if the attack had been aborted and 1 where an orca did grab a leg but immediately let go. 
As for your video Mel taught his pod how to catch sealion pups without risking death from permanent beaching, only 7 orcas in the world have been recorded as able to do this. Transient orcas ''playing'' with their food is something predators do, cats play with their prey too.
In comparison of the 5 incidents the wild orcas realised it was a mistake and let go, even they guy who needed over 100 stitches said the orca could have killed him outright which it indeed could, the captive orcas on the other hand did not stop, these people were not merely drowned their autopsy reports prove that, they were well and truly attacked.

I note you have no links to their autopsy reports if you want them just let me know.

It isn't just death at Seaworld that shows these attacks, they are also logged on Seaworld's own animal profiles. In order to prove that captivity is the issue causing aggression you only need to look at those profiles.
For example
Kasatka  Seaworld log 12 incidents against her -
Her profile states Kasatkas minor aggressive bouts are seen more often when social problems occur with other whales.
Emits aggressive behaviour quick head movements, jaw popping, snapping of jaws ans sliding out of the water to challenge strangers
Her aggressive incidents with trainers seem to occur after trainer switches with minimal or no reinforcement or WHEN SHE WAS SEPARATED FROM HER CALF AND THE CALF WAS IN DISTRESS. Since Takara's birth her aggression towards trainers increased and her waterwork relationships are very much dependent on the whereabouts of Takara.
There is no doubt in anyone's mind that Ken Peters was lucky to escape the tank with his life, it would have killed the majority of us.

You would think the solution would be to stop separating her from her calf wouldn't you?  Doesn't this prove the aggression is caused by Seaworld? Separating her from her calves knowing that it causes aggression seems pretty irresponsible wouldn't you say?

As for the incident with Tilikum you are right something did piss him off.
Tilikums animal profile states
During times of frustration due to social stress in the environment Tilikum has exhibited aggressive behaviour by mouthing the stage, vocalizations, deep fast swim, tightening body posture, and sometimes lunging towards the control trainer.

This was the show minutes before the attack

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7kwT0_rH5k

As you can see, deep fast swim, definite social stress to the point one of the orcas at 0:56 is knocked out of the water by the other. You  can also see the trainers have left the stage as they have lost control and the deep fast swims continued into the back pool.

In light of the fact they Seaworld already knew that Tilikum lunged at control trainers during periods of social stress, do you think it was a good idea for them to allow Dawn to continue the show and to lay down with him after they had just witnessed the incident minutes before?

There are also many incidents including the deaths here which also provide you with the links to their profiles and the autopsy results. Daniel Dukes is particularly interesting seeing as Seaworld stated he was found on Tilikum's back and died of hypothermia when the truth is the medical examiners report shows many pre death injuries including his scrotum being completely avulsed, and post death injuries showing Tilikum continued to ''play'' with him. This is not the story Seaworld gave is it?
other incidents

5. You start off saying that separation is indisputable and you are correct Seaworld HAVE played on the word calf. Just as I would say about my daughter - my baby, when she was a baby, I still call her my baby even though she is 18.
To compare them with social dogs again is wrong. Dogs and cats even in the wild leave their mothers to form their own family and territory, in the case of lions the males are actively chased out of the pride. Even humans rarely live their whole lives with their mothers, they eventually leave home and start families of their own.

Orcas are however different in that respect. They stay in matraline pods their whole life, so when people pull Blackfish down emphasizing the fact that Takara was 12 when she was taken and she was taken with her calf Kohana. They fail to say that both of those were part of Kasatkas matraline, had they been wild, Takara would have started her own family BUT she would have stayed in Kasatka's matraline group with her brothers, sisters and their calves too.

When Seaworld released this video


  saying 'why would we do that' Well why would they do that???  What they failed to do was finish the story. Kohana was taken with Takara that is true, but she was then taken to Spain separated from her mother and is still there to this day. Takara was moved again leaving Trua behind too. These orcas are alive and physical proof that They Do Do THAT!


When Seaworld released this video to try to convince people that they did indeed recognize the importance of social bonds, they couldn't have picked a worst orca as an example of that. Katina with 2 of her calves.

Katina, who is a wild caught orca, had Kalina first,
Kalina was taken to do a tour of the Seaworld parks and not returned until she was 9 years old. Whilst away she had a calf of her own at the extremely young age of 7, 18 months gestation so she was 5 and a half years old and Seaworld allowed her to become pregnant. When Keet was 18 months old his mum was moved again as she was pregnant again.
SEAWORLD SAID KEET BECAME DEPRESSED after her move but he was cared for by Haida 2 and made friends with Kyuquot and Katerina, despite that at aged 5 he was moved to away from them too.

She then had Keto - SEAWORLD SAID HE WAS MOVED OUT OF ORLANDO TO CORRECT HIS BAD HABITS he was 3. He stayed at San Diego for 9 months, then was moved to Ohio and then to San Antonio. He finally formed a bond with Kayla even fighting with Ky over her and was then reunited with his brother and they too became really close. Despite the bonds he made as he would have naturally been at his mothers side all his life, he was then sent to Loro Parque never seeing any of them again. People wonder then why he killed poor Alix Martinez, Seaworld knew he was messed up as they tried to correct his bad habits, who gave him those bad habits? Even though they knew about Keto they still let the trainers in Loro Parque swim with them, being supervised by Brian Rokeach didn't stop the death.


Then there is Skyla how old was she when Seaworld took her from her mother? 2, what was the reason for that??

When Kalina died from septicemia, she had none of her calves with her, why was that as Seaworld state they don't separate them??? Those 4 orca would have stayed in Katina's matriline after Kalinas death, so thats one calf.

Katerina - Katina's second calf was taken aged 2, and sent to San Antonio, she died there aged 10. Why did they take her from Katina as Seaworld's lovely videos say they respect the mother and calf bond, and the simpering mother of 4 says 'we wouldn't do that' but they would and have.

Taku was so messed up he mated with his own mother, producing Nalani a full inbred who can go nowhere as she will never be part of the breeding programme, if she ever is there certainly would be uproar as no respectable institution would breed an animal knowing they were full inbred.  He died at San Antonio of pneumonia aged 14.

Unna - where is Unna and how old was she when she was moved?? She has been on birth control since miscarrying her first calf. Why isn't she still with Katina??

Ikaika was only 4 when he was traded for 4 Belugas and sent to Marineland. After winning the court battle he was brought back to Seaworld, so why wasn't he brought back to the same tank as his mother as he would have been with her for life in the wild??

Nalani - beautiful Nalani can't go anywhere as she can never be used for the breeding programme due to being the result of mother and son mating.

7 calves later she had Makaio, who is still with her. She should have all her calves with her and as 3 of them have died from septicemia, pneumonia and infection which then raises the question of how have these orca got those infections as Seaworld says their tanks are free from bacteria, infection and pathogens. Look through the causes of death for the other orca too, this is obviously NOT the case.

To produce a video saying Seaworld are aware of the mother and calf bonds makes the situation so much worse, as ignorance could have been an excuse, now there is no excuse for separating these orca.

The orcas in the video are her youngest calf and inbred Nalani.


6. Firstly the reports aren't from 20 years ago. Lets take a look. If we pick a none Blackfish trainers as we all know their views and why they want the captivity to end,  and go for say Bridgette Pirtle who you will be aware is now saying she supports Seaworld. Ignoring what she had to say about Blackfish and looking at why she said she left Seaworld seems to be the right way to answer this one.

In this interview she says   ''I spent too many years watching decisions made to spend money on show elements, playgrounds or barbeque restaurants.  Now is the time to let actions speak louder then words.  Give the animals the best.  Update facilities that haven’t seen any expansion since the 80s.  Ultimately, the same concerns voiced as a result of Dawn’s accident had been voiced after incidents in the past. Lessons not learned and continually disregarded. Many of those taking care of the animals are fighting for less responsibility to be placed upon their ever-drooping dorsal fins. Show schedules, public interactions, and dining obligations create a strain on animals already in a highly stressed environment. They are proudly introduced as “ambassadors” but they are simply work horses for a profit hungry industry desperate to remain relevant in a society that has already begun to recognize we have moved past such a trite necessity. Until parks like SeaWorld exhale their dying breathe, tighter regulations and stronger accountability for adhering to such guidelines is a given.''

This interview
The breeding program should end, and animals for entertainment should end.

What are they going to do with all these whales?

That was a battle I fought in my last year at SeaWorld. It was disappointing to me to see more money spent on parts of the park that didn't benefit the animals. They'd spend millions of dollars renovating a children's play area or revamping the sound system.
But there wasn't enough pool space [in San Antonio].
When you look at the Animal Welfare Act, the parks meet it, but the act is outdated. Killer whales aren't even acknowledged as being dangerous.

In this interview 
  she tells the story of Unna who miscarried during a show. The show had to continue and after it was over trainers had to dive in and pick up the pieces of fetus. She went on to say she had 3 miscarriages in total. Seaworld acknowledge she had one saying her health was so compromised she has been on medication ever since.
Despite asking her to clarify this she chose not to respond. Either she is lying saying Unna had 3 miscarriages or Seaworld are lying saying she has only had one.

Even in her interview with Eric Davis of Awesome Ocean and Stand with Seaworld she said  

What would Bridgette do if she was in charge of SeaWorld?

 “I would end animals for entertainment purposes, and stop the breeding program''

This isn't a 20 years ago trainer is it so I guess her comments on what it is like to work for Seaworld are relevant.


Secret Agendas and Summary

Had you looked in the right places for what the agendas were you would have found that NO ONE has said they want Seaworld to close, nor have they said sump the orcas in the open ocean.

Naomi Rose put forward a win win situation to Seaworld, win for the orcas and win for Seaworld
 She states
First, orcas in captivity are out of shape; they are the equivalent of couch potatoes, as the largest orca tank in the world is less than one ten-thousandth of one percent (0.0001%) the size of the smallest home range of wild orcas.
Second, they are in artificial and often incompatible social groups. This contributes to chronic stress, which can depress the immune system and leave captive orcas susceptible to infections they would normally fight off in the wild.  WE CAN SEE THE PROOF OF THAT IN SEAWORLD'S OWN ANIMAL PROFILES.
Third, they often break their teeth chewing compulsively on metal gates. These broken teeth, even drilled and cleaned regularly by irrigation, are clear routes for bacteria to enter the bloodstream. These are the obvious factors; there are almost certainly others contributing to the elevated mortality seen in captivity. THIS HAS BEEN PROVEN TOO SEE THE MARINELAND V SEAWORLD COURT FILE.

These facilities can work with experts around the world to create sanctuaries where captive orcas can be rehabilitated and retired. These sanctuaries would be sea pens or netted-off bays or coves, in temperate to cold water natural habitat. They would offer the animals respite from performing and the constant exposure to a parade of strangers (an entirely unnatural situation for a species whose social groupings are based on family ties and stability -- "strangers" essentially do not exist in orca society). Incompatible animals would not be forced to cohabit the same enclosures and family groups would be preserved.

Show business trainers would no longer be necessary. Expert caretakers would continue to train retired whales for veterinary procedures, but would not get in the water and would remain at a safe distance (this is known in zoo parlance as "protected contact"). And the degree to which they interact directly with the whales would be each whale's choice.

A fundamental premise of these sanctuaries, however, is that eventually they would empty. Breeding would not be allowed and captive orcas would no longer exist within the next few decades.

YOU HAVE OBVIOUSLY READ IT JUST CHOOSING TO PICK OUT THE ONE LINE, NOT THE WHOLE THING.

PETA who Seaworld make people believe are their arch enemies also put forward a plan WHICH DOESN'T INVOLVE CLOSING DOWN SEAWORLD

Lori Marino put forward a view on what Seaworld could do which AGAIN doesn't involve closing Seaworld

You can also see here in the Q and A's from Awesome Ocean and Mark Simmons, at 33:50 even Mark Simmons said the ocean didn't kill Keiko.


There is also then this which is a whole new way to see captive animals  the footage of those orcas actually being orcas catching their own fish, being pack in their matraline pods, swimming in the kelp etc could be relayed back into the park.

WHERE I STAND.

 You said at the beginning of this I will share the information my personal research has uncovered, so have I.
There is no grey area here, factual evidence from official documents cannot be disputed we know that. Court transcripts cannot be made up, necropsy reports, autopsy reports etc so this are undisputed FACTUAL EVIDENCE.

What I have found when speaking to people to try to show them this evidence is
Seaworld, Stand with Seaworld, Awesome Ocean, and all the related sites run by Eric Davis, Erin McKinney and Mike block anyone showing a different opinion, so how can people make up their minds about anything if they are not being allowed to see the documentation for themselves. You said yourself you have research this for over a year, but you still missed all those important links.

When you speak to people who do support Seaworld, it starts with being accused of being a PETA supporter. I don't support PETA's kill policy anymore than they do, so once that barrier is down, it moves to Blackfish, my usual response is pretend it didn't exist then, the evidence is before Blackfish's time of 2013. They then accept the evidence, dont read it come back with some stupid thing and resort to name calling, check my twitter for proof of that. If they get a retaliation then I'm nasty lol.

On the other hand I have spoken to people who have said it won't change their mind but thank you for being so civil. I am always civil unless it comes from the other person first, even then I don't say shut up as you are more noisy than your dead mother was last night, or your dead mother can't suck properly. Is there any need for things like that?

Check out the Stand with Seaworld page, post after post about PETA fueling anger and paranoia against anyone who tries to show them the actual facts. Check Awesome Ocean, nearly all the posts are manipulating data, bullying individuals even a 10 year old girl who spoke out against Seaworld and they have people in such a frenzy that they thing everyone is the enemy. I have debunked those posts over and over as Eric and his friends obviously do have an agenda, working for a marketing company they obviously think they are doing great marketing for Seaworld when in fact they do more damage to Seaworld than the anti captivity people do. Check my blog, one article after another corrected with the right information, not manipulated facts to try to push an agenda

The whole thing is out of hand, people like me are not stupid those orcas can't go back to the open ocean for the following reasons
  • 14 of them are hybrid including the new calf with no conservation value what so ever. The powers that be would never let them out into the wild to corrupt the wild gene pool and where would they go they have no equivalents out there? 
  • 2 are inbred they wouldn't be allowed to go either.
  • In any other institution they would be in a Marius situation. I am glad they are not as I don't believe Marius should have been killed but he was as he wasn't genetically right to enter the wild gene pool.
  • Those who need tooth flushing can never be out in the ocean as they would always need that husbandry.
  • Those on medication like Ike and Unna couldn't go
In light of all the above the matraline which we know are so important would have to be separated which would then make all those campaigning to get them out of the tanks as bad as Seaworld, which is why NO ONE has put that forward.

Seaworld need to be open and transparent with the people who support them. Many believe the captive orcas pay for the rescues as their ticket money funds them. That is a downright lie as Prescott fund funds the rescues as it does for all the other facilities, manatee club funds their rescues and sea turtle rescues are funded too. Take a look at page 20 on here, Seaworld had nothing to rescue with in 2001 not even a boat, yet they tell people they have been rescuing for 50 years.

Seaworld claim all the people on Blackfish are activists, they were asked their opinions as they are orca experts take a look at their credentials here

Nothing will change the fact that 45 orcas have died in those tanks that is almost 1 per year, 244 dolphins have died, 23 Belugas have died, pilot whales, false killer whales dead.


 In 50 years, things may have been improving but when Seaworld and their supporters say they receive top vet care, restaurant quality fish, top dental care, when it isn't it tooth flushing for the damaged teeth and give people a false impression of what has happened in those tanks which people like me all know about, they are the cause of the friction between the 2 sides, fueled by Stand with Seaworld and the lies they tell people too.

If it doesn't change peoples minds that is fair enough, but to not even look at the evidence because they have been led to believe anti caps are some sort of monsters is wrong, the evidence is there, add in the links so it is unbiased as you say it is supposed to be and if you need more evidence just ask as I have also been studying this since the days Cuddles was in a tank in the UK.

 There is always 2 side to everything these 3 videos for me sum it up visually

Corky 2


Wild orca matraline


Why do they sum it up for me?
The matraline pod in the second video is Corky's mother and her family

Lastly
Tilikum 13th December 2014 after refusing to do a show



Do you think its OK that he feels like this and displays it too?

Now do you see why captivity is wrong for these creatures?








19 comments:

  1. Okay, now I guess it's your turn to approve my comment....

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    1. I let all comments on dont make people wait all opinions are valid, I just delete any that are abuse

      Delete
  2. Did my first comment get lost in the ether? If it did, I posted that I will be happy to engage you discussion on this, but I'm on my way out of the country for a personal emergency, so please bear with me, and I'll respond in a week or two.

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    1. I have added in the actual links for you now to save time having to copy and paste them. Should make it easier reading as I couldn't post them directly onto yours.

      Delete
  3. Yeah that will be good, there is so much evidence out there and the Seaworld supporters are using your link making out it is some sort of weapon. This is the sort of thing that needs to stop, facts are facts what ever side of the fence you are on, choosing not to look at them because others jump in and try to tell them that is the right thing to do isn't on. You have facts and so do I, so it will be good to put them together rationally.

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    1. there is so much evidence out there and the Seaworld supporters are using your link making out it is some sort of weapon

      Well, I certainly hope they do. The reality is, the "facts" are nowhere near as clearcut as you make them out to be.

      There are people on either extreme who will spout whatever propaganda is out there to support their case. And then there are people like you and me who will assimilate the evidence and make a rational decision. And yet, they will still ultimately disagree.

      I've read through your entire comment and know how I'm going to reply (I just don't have the time to sit down and do so right now). Some of it will entail taking the so-called facts and viewing them from a different perspective. Some of it will reference other studies that provide alternate conclusions than what you've reached. And some of it will point out that you and I actually agree.

      Either way, if this is your goal:

      Now do you see why captivity is wrong for these creatures?

      Know that you won't succeed, as I have done my own research and drawn my own conclusions. And I do in fact support SeaWorld.

      On the other hand, if you're willing to acknowledge that two people can be equally informed and still disagree, then I am happy to engage.

      Delete
  4. Okay, there is definitely something wrong with your commenting system, as some of my comments are not making it through. Just a heads-up.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Well, your commenting system is being kind of a jerk, so let's see if I can do this in pieces....

    ReplyDelete
  6. Woo hoo, I decided to get wi-fi on the plane, so I actually have time to respond now. Before I start, though, I want to clarify a few things.

    First off, my goal in my original post was to analyze the information (and misinformation) presented by both sides, then conclude whether or not keeping killer whales in captivity has an adverse effect on them -- or at least, adverse enough that they should immediately be removed from captivity. I think I made that goal pretty clear.

    I'm not actually sure what your goal in your original comment was, however, and partially for this reason, I noticed several fallacies that you commit:

    A) You dispute something either I or SeaWorld has presented, but whether or not the information is true doesn't actually impact the killer whale's health in captivity.

    B) You point out differences between killer whales in the wild versus in captivity, but there isn't any evidence this difference has any tangible effect on their health.

    C) You make a claim that I already refuted in my own post.

    D) You bring up something as an argument, but it's actually in agreement with what I already said.

    For simplicity, I will refer to these fallacies by letter for the rest of this comment. I will also respond to each point you made by number and use } to refer to your comments.

    Okay, here we go:

    1. Swimming

    } whether the orcas across the globe are hunting, playing or just socializing, they are constantly in motion even when sleeping

    The Proposed Conservation Plan for Southern Resident Killer Whales directly contradicts this statement:

    "Forward motion is slow (mean = 3 km/hr) or stops entirely.... Resting periods average about 2 hours, but may last from 30 minutes to 7 hours" [p. 21]

    http://web.archive.org/web/20070221111451/http://www.nwr.noaa.gov/Marine-Mammals/Whales-Dolphins-Porpoise/Killer-Whales/Conservation-Planning/upload/SRKW-propConsPlan.pdf

    Even if this resting behavior is non-existent in killer whales, you would still need to prove that it does in fact harm them. Ergo, the killer whales' so-called inactivity at SeaWorld isn't evidence that their health is being adversely affected (Fallacy B).

    } Using the West Nile Virus which has killed Seaworld orcas, no recorded cases in the wild as it is carried by mosquito

    I actually didn't know about this and had to look it up. You are correct in this case, and it is a tragedy.

    At the same time, this is a case where a difference in behavior led to the killer whales being susceptible to a disease they wouldn't have been exposed to in the wild. While this is tragic, this alone does not mean that captivity is directly harmful to them.

    In this case, I would argue that SeaWorld needs to take precautions to protect their killer whales from mosquito-borne viruses. I don't see it as an argument for the killer whales not being in captivity in the first place.

    We may have to agree to disagree on this point.

    2. Dorsal fin collapse

    } The point actually is that Seaworld deliberately manipulated the information and has misled people with it, hence the protest from Dr Visser and their own vet admitted that.

    As I pointed out, there is plenty of evidence that dorsal fin collapse does not affect the killer whales' health. As such, you committed Fallacy B, but followed it up with Fallacy C.

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    1. Thank you for this, I think there are still some areas which are incorrect though so I will reply to your responses, as there is truth in the facts and at least we are both looking at them rather than at what each side wants to put across, whether it is truth or not.
      1. Swimming - the link I put in my response was from the Center for Whale Research and clearly says ''Southern Resident Killer Whales travel an average of 75 miles (120 kilometers) a day. They are capable of sustaining an average speed of over 6 knots (8 miles per hour/12.87 km per hour) for long periods of time and can go as fast as 30 miles per hour (48 km per hour) for short periods. Small Transient pods and large Southern Resident pods are always in constant motion; socializing, foraging, feeding, resting, playing or just traveling''
      The Center for Whale Research have studied these animals for years. On the link you sent you missed out the rest of the information which says This behavior often follows periods of foraging. In resident
      groups, whales usually gather together abreast in a tight formation, with animals diving and surfacing in subdued unison (Jacobsen 1986, Osborne 1986, Ford 1989, Baird and Dill 1995, Ford et al. 2000). Individuals often arrange themselves according to matriline or pod, and offspring usually swim near or
      touching their mother. Forward motion is slow (mean = 3 km/hr) or stops entirely. Dives and surfacings become characteristically regular, with a series of several short shallow surfacings lasting 2-3 minutes followed by a longer dive of 2-5 minutes. Resting whales are usually silent,except for occasional vocalizations.
      As you can see they do not float at the surface and even though asleep they often still do shallow dives. As you can see from this link too the marine mammal brain is designed to only shut down half at a time, so they can still swim whilst sleeping http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-do-whales-and-dolphin/.
      The logging in captivity isn't a natural thing and is to their detriment. This peer reviewed article shows that https://sites.google.com/site/voiceoftheorcas/the-current-story/apeerrevieweddiscussionoftheconditionsofkillerwhalecaptivity stating - ''The constrained pool surface areas and pool depths inherent to the captive environment results in captive orcas consistently spending a greater proportion of their day logging than do their wild counterparts. Logging behavior, in which animals float motionless at the surface of the water, is especially common among large males who are often longer than the depths of the pools they inhabit.'' As you concurred this does lead to attack from mosquito and west nile virus. It also states ''Orcas housed in low latitude facilities in North America are exposed to the immunosuppressive effects of high UVR dosing, especially among animals prone to excessive logging and who reside in pools lacking shade structure. Sunburn among wild orcas is not described in the literature as most wild orca populations live in low UVR environments. However, we commonly observed blistered and peeling skin on the dorsal surfaces of the captive orcas we worked with, especially among those who commonly exhibited logging behavior. It is accepted that excessive UVR exposure suppresses immunity to various pathogens, including a number of viruses''

      We also know from Keiko that live in a tank decreased his diving ability. When put into the tank in Oregon he could barely hold his breath long enough to dive, but re learnt that and became stronger and fitter once in the ocean.

      Ergo, the killer whales' so-called inactivity at SeaWorld isn't evidence that their health is being adversely affected (Fallacy B). So fallacy B isn't a fallacy at all, it is proven that it does affect their wellbeing.

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    2. I haven't said that dorsal fin collapse is a sign of ill health, it is however a sign of captivity, as the captive population is the only group of orcas where 100% of adult males and some females suffer from dorsal fin collapse. It is a symptom of the lack of water pressure, swimming and ability to dive properly.

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  7. 3. Longevity

    } So whether you think she is an activist or not is irrelevant to your 'unbiased' blog.

    I referred to Dr. Rose as a scientist-turned-activist because that's what she calls herself, as you can see in this video:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z84sLwSAFsQ

    Furthermore, it is absolutely relevant whether or not someone is an activist. By its very nature, activism means you are choosing to be unbiased. That is certainly something we need to consider when we are analyzing facts and attempting to sluice out biases. This is also the same reason that I point out from the very beginning that I used to work at SeaWorld.

    } As for the longevity claims there are actually research papers out there proving that captive orcas DO NOT live as long as their wild counterparts.

    I addressed this in my post. As pointed out, longevity is an improper comparison. You're committing Fallacy C again.

    } At SeaWorld, females are often bred much earlier, at 6 or 7 years old, indicating either artificial inducement by hormonal supplements, or the absence of cultural restraints, or both.

    I'm not sure what this has to do with longevity. However, I acknowledge that it is a relevant issue, and this is where I support more transparency on SeaWorld's end. Again, I pointed this out already in my post. Fallacy D.

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    1. That is a very good video link, it shows a lot of the issues around Seaworld but I cannot see Naomi Rose describe herself as an activist. I will give you though she thinks it is wrong as many do and even from her scientific standpoint and with the backing of many others in the scientific community, she knows captivity is wrong, so I guess that does make her an activist as the definition of activism is - consists of efforts to promote, impede, or direct social, political, economic, or environmental change, or stasis. That is what she is doing but unlike many of us she also has the scientific knowledge behind her, to prove what she says and has her own peer reviewed papers.

      Seaworld themselves state their orcas live 'nearly' as long as their wild counterparts. So it isn't fallacy C, as they admit it themselves. Captive orcas do not live and have not lived as long as those in the wild, and with 50 years of practice, top vet care, restaurant quality fish, dental care, regular blood works etc etc they should be outliving their wild relatives hands down.

      Of the orcas in Seaworld's collection right now, only 2 of those they originally captured survive, 3 wild caught orcas were sent to Seaworld and 45 are dead. Only 6 are in their 20's, 5 are teenagers and 14 are not even in their teens yet. How do you explain that, other than stating the orcas in captivity do not live as long as their wild counterparts?

      As for fallacy D it is included in the longevity section as had you read the last section, that paper shows how the wild orca ages have been calculated as they were first documented - We don't have definite birth years for the older orca females, but several have been post-reproductive since the photo-ID studies began in 1973, and are still alive, indicating they are at least around 75 now, and some are older. That is roughly equivalent to human life spans.
      Male maturation rates are also very similar for humans and orcas, beginning in early to mid-teens with full maturity in late teens. This indicates that full male lifespans in undisturbed populations may also be similar.

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  8. 4. Attacks and deaths

    } there are 4 deaths by captive orcas not 3

    I was referring specifically to Tilikum. Either way, whether it's three or four in 50 years of captivity amounts to Fallacy A.

    } I note you have no links to their autopsy reports if you want them just let me know.

    Autopsy reports don't reveal anything about the killer whale's mental well-being. They barely even reveal anything about the killer whale's mindset at that specific moment. All they tell us is what he did. They don't tell us anything about *why* he did it.

    I'm not sure how you can conclude from an autopsy report that captivity is causing Tilikum to behave this way. You're making a whole bunch of interpretations on what Tilikum was "feeling" or trying to do. Fallacy Anthropomorphism.

    The point I made -- which I'll reiterate here -- isn't that Tilikum can be aggressive. I already acknowledged that. I think everyone agrees that he can be kind of a big meanie. That's not in question.

    No, the question is whether this aggression is caused by captivity. Do we have a preponderance of evidence that captivity is harmful for killer whales?

    For me, an indication that captivity does indeed make the killer whales crazy is if we see this behavior all the time from all the whales.

    We don't. And isolated incidents, isolated to certain killer whales, does not prove otherwise. No fallacy here, aside from concluding too much from the evidence available.

    } Her aggressive incidents with trainers seem to occur after trainer switches with minimal or no reinforcement or WHEN SHE WAS SEPARATED FROM HER CALF AND THE CALF WAS IN DISTRESS

    And that calls for more transparency on SeaWorld's end when it comes to separating mothers and calves. In fact, you're actually supporting my point here that it's NOT captivity that's causing the aggressive behavior. In this case, Kasatka's aggression was due to the separation, not to captivity itself.

    Ergo, this point should be used to push SeaWorld to be more concerned about the social structure of their killer whales, not for killer whale captivity to end.

    } You would think the solution would be to stop separating her from her calf wouldn't you? Doesn't this prove the aggression is caused by Seaworld? Separating her from her calves knowing that it causes aggression seems pretty irresponsible wouldn't you say?

    And here's where you commit Fallacy D again. I already said that I would like to see SeaWorld be more transparent when it comes to mother-calf separations. We're in agreement here.

    As for everything else about all the other killer whales, all I read is a bunch of anthropomorphisms and conjecture on what they might have been thinking. With reference to Tilikum specifically, while your observations support the possibility that he may just be an aggressive animal, again, it doesn't lend conclusive proof that his aggression is caused by captivity. Back to Fallacy B.

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  9. 5. A mass of jumbled ranting on individual killer whales at SeaWorld

    } Orcas are however different in that respect. They stay in matraline pods their whole life

    This study (which I mentioned and linked in my post) proves otherwise:

    http://www.cascadiaresearch.org/robin/kwsoc.pdf

    Fallacy C.

    As for the descriptions of the individual killer whales, now we're on Fallacy D again. SeaWorld needs to be more transparent. It doesn't in any way indicate that the killer whales should not be in captivity in the first place.

    6. More "stuff"

    } Ignoring what she had to say about Blackfish and looking at why she said she left Seaworld seems to be the right way to answer this one.

    No, she is expressing her own personal opinion. We have to weigh all the other opinions out there, not just take hers at face value.

    } It was disappointing to me to see more money spent on parts of the park that didn't benefit the animals. They'd spend millions of dollars renovating a children's play area or revamping the sound system. But there wasn't enough pool space [in San Antonio].

    I agree. But again, that doesn't mean they shouldn't be in captivity in the first place.

    } Had you looked in the right places for what the agendas were you would have found that NO ONE has said they want Seaworld to close, nor have they said sump the orcas in the open ocean.

    That's pretty presumptuous of you to claim that. I don't know where you are (the UK?), but here in San Diego, there are plenty of people who want to see SeaWorld closed down, or the killer whales returned to the oceans. Maybe you're lucky enough not to have encountered them. I haven't been that lucky, and I would appreciate that you not presume otherwise.

    } Naomi Rose put forward a win win situation to Seaworld

    You know I referenced Dr. Rose's proposal in my post, right? I know what she wants. I just don't happen to agree with it.

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    1. point 5, you need to look at the link you gave again as this is a paper on transient mammal eating orcas and there are none of those in captive tanks. I suggest you read 5 again as you will then see it is not ramblings it addresses the videos Seaworld put out about respecting the family bonds. Once you see that your link is actually to a different type of orca altogether then it will make more sense.

      ''As for the descriptions of the individual killer whales, now we're on Fallacy D again. SeaWorld needs to be more transparent. It doesn't in any way indicate that the killer whales should not be in captivity in the first place.''
      If captivity isn't the issue then why does Seaworld's own website state ''Where it was once necessary to move whales to ensure that diversity, advances in artificial insemination, pioneered with killer whales at SeaWorld, have made inter-facility whale transfers less common.'' http://seaworld.com/en/truth/killer-whales/family/ . Isn't this statement confirmation that in captivity the orcas either suffer the AI procedures or have their families separated. What alternative is there other than ending captivity as both methods are wrong.

      ''That's pretty presumptuous of you to claim that. I don't know where you are (the UK?), but here in San Diego, there are plenty of people who want to see SeaWorld closed down, or the killer whales returned to the oceans. Maybe you're lucky enough not to have encountered them. I haven't been that lucky, and I would appreciate that you not presume otherwise.'' There may well be people in San Diego asking for Seaworld to close down, but are they Congressmen, Scientists, or anyone with any legal influence on that decision or are they just regular people who have had enough of Seaworld and their lies?

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  10. } These facilities can work with experts around the world to create sanctuaries where captive orcas can be rehabilitated and retired.

    As the examples I cited show, this is easier said than done, and far on the idealistic side. I don't think you actually read the Dangerous Solutions section closely here -- certainly not the detailed reports I linked. I'm calling Fallacy C on this one.

    } Show business trainers would no longer be necessary.

    I reference a study showing that shows can actually be enriching for the animals. Why would you want to deprive them of this enrichment? Fallacy C again.

    As for all the stuff about the killer whales' behaviors, none of that to me is indication that they should be removed from captivity. It's indication that SeaWorld's practices can improve, or at least be more transparent.

    } when Seaworld and their supporters say they receive top vet care, restaurant quality fish, top dental care, when it isn't it tooth flushing for the damaged teeth and give people a false impression of what has happened in those tanks which people like me all know about, they are the cause of the friction between the 2 sides, fueled by Stand with Seaworld and the lies they tell people too

    That's pretty accusatory and close-minded of you. The reality is that both sides present their share of propaganda and misinformation. I urge you to accept this as fact, rather than try to blame it all on the side you don't agree with.

    } There is no grey area here, factual evidence from official documents cannot be disputed we know that.

    And this is where you are wrong. If it is so black-and-white, then there should be no controversy whatsoever. Do you honestly believe that all the pro-caps out there are only pro-cap because they're denying the factual evidence? Are you really that self-righteous?

    Here's the bottom line: There is a preponderance of inconclusive evidence out there -- evidence that is open to interpretation. Just because someone interprets the evidence differently than you doesn't make them ignorant, or purposely ignoring the facts.

    I won't call you names, but I will respectfully that you look deep into yourself and check for your own biases.

    I think you'll find plenty.

    } Now do you see why captivity is wrong for these creatures?

    Nope, I don't. I have weighed the evidence, and while I agree that there is plenty of room for improvement, I disagree that the killer whales should therefore be removed from captivity.

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    1. As the examples I cited show, this is easier said than done, and far on the idealistic side. I don't think you actually read the Dangerous Solutions section closely here -- certainly not the detailed reports I linked. I'm calling Fallacy C on this one. -
      Fallacy C lol. Show me scientific evidence that they couldn't do this not be done.

      ''I reference a study showing that shows can actually be enriching for the animals. Why would you want to deprive them of this enrichment? Fallacy C again.''
      Who said they are enriching, who said they would be more enriching than letting the orcas be just that, orcas, hunting, foraging and playing in a natural environment. Where is the evidence to back that statement?

      ''That's pretty accusatory and close-minded of you. The reality is that both sides present their share of propaganda and misinformation. I urge you to accept this as fact, rather than try to blame it all on the side you don't agree with.''
      As you can see from my blog I have proved that over and over again, it isn't close minded it is a fact, take for instance the SR captures, because the graph showed a dip in 1976 you can't manipulate that figure and say Seaworld stopped capturing in 1966, but they did, that is blatently misleading people who otherwise wouldnt know. Take a look through the Seaworld lies file and check the Awesome Ocean links for yourself.

      ''And this is where you are wrong. If it is so black-and-white, then there should be no controversy whatsoever. Do you honestly believe that all the pro-caps out there are only pro-cap because they're denying the factual evidence? Are you really that self-righteous?''
      I'm not self righteous at all just factual and speaking from experience, take a look at the numerous conversations I have had with various Seaworld fans and then tell me they are not denying actual evidence. I used to think ignorance to the facts was the problem but it isn't, they blatently ignore them, twist them or just resort to name calling to avoid them - https://twitter.com/godsake2. What do you call that, ignorance of the facts or ignoring the facts?
      There are also numerous conversations across the internet on many articles where the majority of fans copy and paste the same line over and over, therefore what are people like me supposed to think to that, other than they really don't want to know?

      Here's the bottom line: There is a preponderance of inconclusive evidence out there -- evidence that is open to interpretation. Just because someone interprets the evidence differently than you doesn't make them ignorant, or purposely ignoring the facts.
      The bottom line is there is also a preponderance of evidence that IS NOT inconclusive, or open to interpretation. With regards to the orcas themselves much of that evidence is there in the physical presence and behaviors of those orcas, which since the time of video and mobiles with video and camera, Seaworld can no longer hide from. Court reports are not inconclusive nor are necropsy reports or other governmental documents. Take for instance Ramu's necropsy report it clearly states he was 18 and also clearly states Seaworld said he died of old age. That is not open to interpretation nor is in inconclusive it is concrete evidence that they were wrong. Same with the court report showing Jeff Andrews and Chuck Tompkins blamed Dawn Brancheau for her own death, that is also conclusive evidence that they did as the court transcriber documents everything as it is said in court. I have even been told that the court has lied about it lol. How ridiculous and biased is that? Evidence is evidence.

      I know my own biases, captivity is wrong, it has been proven to be wrong, and can be proven to be wrong without the use of either Seaworld or Blackfish, it can and has been proven in official documents which I hope you now can see.



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    2. Replied here:

      http://www.musingsonlifeandlove.com/can-rational-seaworld-comments/comment-page-1/#comment-47011

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